Specific Strategies for Talking to Teens About Sex, Sexting & More

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Author and sex education expert, Dr. Karen Rayne is a wealth of information and has developed specific and actionable strategies to help you talk to your kids and teens about sex and other difficult topics. In this episode, Karen and Jess discuss:

• How to talk to teens about breakups, sex, sexting, risk-taking
• The “one question” rule to revolutionize conversations about sex
• Specific “rules” for talking to teens
• 10 steps to break the “hush factor” when it comes to sex
• The benefits of considering yourself a “contractor” when it comes to your teen
• How to ensure that your child/teen feel supported and come to you during times of need, distress and crisis
• Sexting - essential rules, approaches and considerations
• How to stay cool when your teen is riling you up
• Considerations related to how much space and autonomy to give your teen

As Dr. Karen referenced "The Hush Factor" in today's podcast, please see this explanatory graphic below. Follow Dr. Karen on Instagram.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Specific Strategies for Talking to Teens About Sex, Sexting & More

00:00:05 - 00:05:02

You're listening to the sacs with Dr Jasser podcast sacks and relationship advice you can use tonight Hey Jessica Riley here your friendly neighborhood sexologist. And today I am joined by Dr Karen Rain the Executive Director of on on hushed an author and educator. You do all the things in sex education with folks of all ages but with a focus on young people and parents. Yeah yeah I would say so. And part of the reason I don't focus a lot on adults is because they're really hard to reach and so I have plans in the works long-term plans. Do you think adults need more. Sex Education may be even more than teens. Do you think think we ended up in a place where we think because we're mature or because we have experienced. We don't need the formal education. Yeah or people think that. Oh like I got that when when I was a teenager as much as I needed and Not Recognizing that things change as you get older bodies change what you want out of a relationship. Changes is what you don't want on her relationship. Changes like everything evolves and continues to evolve are learning about sexuality and relationships needs to continue through as a life life-span learning process one pattern. I observe with parents is that oftentimes you didn't receive sex education. You needed when you were younger as we know In many cases it was entirely absent. And then your kid or your team comes to you with an issue or they don't come to you but you observe from the sideline the and then you have to do the learning in order to be the teacher in some ways and so I'm thinking of a couple of scenarios lately where some parents texted me and they're fourteen fifteen year old in in these cases daughters are either sexting and I know sexting abroad term means lots of different things but sending sexy messages suggestive tax even some sexy photos not not nudes in these cases. And they're freaking out. They're really concerned. They see it as a moral issue is an ethical issue. They see this as something that could potentially ruin their daughters lives. And as much as I you know we can understand that visceral reaction that you want to protect. We're bringing our own values into our reaction so I bet you have some really good strategies for managing a situation like this. How do you take care of yourself so that you can address your child? Who by the way I say child because they're your child but there are a teen their young adult? How do you address their needs and support them and help them to make decisions that work for them? Yeah you know. Even and even if a parent had received really good sex education it would not have included. sexting it's a new landscape isn't it. It's totally totally new. They did the D. The sending letters by dove send nudes ended pigeon. Yeah absolutely so it is a totally new landscape. And who is an expert on something. That's brand new. So would I fall back on is answers about like how. How can you be a really good parent in ways that are special and specific So my book for parents is called breaking the hush factor tendrils for talking with teenagers about sex. What are they well? The first there's three chunks of them and the first set of rules is all about preparing yourself for the conversation and I feel like this is actually the most important step around on something like sexting where you don't understand it you you disapprove of it. You're worried scares you. You're worried about it. You don't really know what it means is in the adolescent landscape because it it's such a new element and so it's all about diving into yourself and figuring out where you stand and how remembering how that does not mean that you can control your kids. It doesn't mean your choices are the same as is your kids and it doesn't mean that your teenagers choices are wrong for them. So that's kind of what that first set of rules does for parents. I like the preparation preparation as opposed to the reactionary response. And when you think about all the important conversations you have in your life whether it's You know a job interview review or talking about a relationship talking about a break-up which we'll talk about after we always prepare. You never just walk into a job interview and fly by you to your pants but we're talking about something.

00:05:02 - 00:10:11

That's you know surrounds your your child's health. Their wellbeing their relationships their future so prepare. I Love I think that's so important. Yeah and it's actually one of that. Exact analogy is something that I use it. Parents a lot. I say when you're when you when your child is actually a child before they're a teenager you're their manager you're right. You're the one managing telling them what to do where to go all the things and once they're a teenager you become a contractor and so every time you you are interacting with them. You're basically re applying to be contractor again next time. Oh that that's a really interesting analogy. I love it because a lot. A lot of folks who are listening are familiar with the fact that I say you should treat relationships like business. There are all these business skills. We use from setting appointments to the following through to checking in to having board meetings to respecting people's time turning off your phone in a meeting the way. Why don't we turn it off at the dinner table? So I I love that approach and I think that's such an interesting analogy of the contractor that you're not going to necessarily win this contract again. You have to work for it. Yeah you have to work for it and you have to work for your kids kids to want to come to you for advice and support Do you think there's some entitlement in in parenting. Sometimes we feel like no I am your parent therefore for I am going to be the one. Yeah of course there is you know and that comes from of course being the one when you have a two year old right right. Of course you're the one guy but when you have the twelve year old Maybe you're not when you have a sixteen year old unless you won their trust you are definitely not and so if you want to be able to have impact act and space for your child to talk to you you have to deal with your own shit. I and then you have to want to rule number three Stop talking okay. And rule number four is start listening because that's what teenagers really need. They know your value system. No teenagers major is like I wonder how parents feel about me sexting. No teenager has ever wondered that question. My parents would love this. They no your feelings they can predict your feelings very very well and your opinions are experts predicting you and so they don't actually need you to restate your values. What they need need to do is to have you listen and they can see what it feels like to say things in your presence and if they feel Yucky that's about about them learning their next steps not about you telling them what their next steps should be? It's this really beautiful process of them Being able to Experience themselves differently in your presence over time and coming to a place on their own most kids returned to their parents value systems. Most of them do and so but you need to give them space to do that in order for them to really build that relationship with you from their perspective. I think that's a really interesting approach. I I really appreciate it. So how do we start that conversation. Can you help us with the script. So if I'm supposed to be listening to my teen What are the questions I can ask because I think people need various specific language because in the heat of the moment you are as you said you're scared and so you're not being your most thoughtful rational articulate self rule number five? Is You only get one question. ooh So what that means is A. You're GonNa most parents often what I see. Most parents falling down on on the most frequently is they just have a barrage of questions. What were you thinking? What were you planning? Did you have any idea how this is going to be like spread around your school like i. I can't believe you did this. You know do you know how much of disappointed me like. There's just this barrage of very judgy questions. And so when you rain in that in and you say to yourself okay. I only get to ask one question. It's like being arrested. One phone call. Yes you have to sit there and think about what that question is going to be it it closes your mouth. Yeah it makes makes space for your teenager to start talking and we hate empty space and kids when their parents sit there silently hate empty space. Even more it's so interesting saying you're bringing up all these things that people use in business so one you know in a negotiation oftentimes if you just close your mouth. They will tell you what they want right. If you're negotiating price my partners a realtor. If he was here he'd be saying this that sometimes he'll just he'll just sit in silence on the phone because the other realtors spills their guts like well. Here's what we want and they're moving. They're doing this. So here's my number and it's like you just talked yourself down twenty five thousand dollars because I said nothing. He's not a fighter. Yeah I mean Brennan's not saying he's always trying to get the most out of people they're trying to arrive at something fair but if people aren't being honest they can't and silence can lead to some of that vulnerability and honesty.

00:10:11 - 00:15:00

Yeah same thing works with teenagers. It's brilliant so one question you only get one of them and I push back on people who asked me for a script for that question because it is so context specific. It should not be a question that should be in that can be answered with yes or no so Did you think about what the fallout would be. That's a yes or no question. Don't ask that question. Don't use your one question on only yes or no because the your kid can then say gee I did and now it's your attorney. I just loved the ball back at you. Yeah so something much broader like. Where were you hoping that this would go right? And then just sit just so sit in silence until you have your question and then after you ask it. Sit In silence silence. Because you don't have any more things to say you can't have nowhere questions. Obviously at some point you get. Another question is to go with this. I know even when I get into an argument with Brandin. I'll ask him one thing. Tell him one thing that's bothering me. And then another and then another and I I have to remind myself that I'm overwhelming him. And he's not GonNa Remember what I said twenty seconds ago because I won't shut shot up like I need to learn shut my mouth. Yeah I always when I think of the people I admire in life it is. They're often people who don't say say as much as I do because I talk a lot and sometimes I I like that about myself. A social persona chat to lots of different types of people and meet such interesting people because of it but in intense moments I know I need to learn to shut up and so I would be carrying some of my behavioral stuff into my parenting right and and maybe he doing damage to that relationship so I have to be more mindful. Yeah and it really it. Just you know people push back on especially people who have kids who are quiet to look my kid. Just just won't talk because my kid is one of those quiet kids you know and I get that it's hard but that means you have to be even more quiet than your kid. Are you making making space for them to talk or are you filling the air and so one of the next rules is to do something else. which is something? That's recommended all the time right like when you're having an intense conversation station do something else driving a car Play basketball whatever it is but I wanNA Kinda like turn. That's a little tighter and say do something that your kid enjoys. He's Oh interesting okay. So it's not just about Rian dimly picking a time when something else is happening but actively choose something that your kid likes and and do that thing with them and and be there be there with them even if you hate it. I don't need you to like Pok Mon or you know. Video Games James or basketball or hiking. I don't need any no one. Needs anyone else to like those things but your kid does need you to participate in the things they love and those are the best times if you do those something like that with your kid once a week for half an hour. It's not that much time but those are the times when you can like prep your question and while you're doing that activity asked that question and at what point do you tell them how you feel like. Let's say you say hey listen I understand. Let's say you're very reasonable about this. I understand the desire to do this. I understand that it can feel good and we can talk about what the reasons are and I also WanNa talk talk about the consequences and I'm struggling with this because I have this. I guess I'm conflicted in that. I want to protect you and I also so want you to make your own decisions. At what point do you share. That are enter many parents actually talking that way some parents are and I would encourage them not to say any of those things. Okay your kids know that they know all of those things they know restating. Your position is not going to be use fall. They have sixteen years of living with you and observing you and observing you not just in your interactions with them but in observing you and your interactions actions with everybody else and their older siblings younger siblings your partner obsoleteness social media news stories. They have watched your reactions uh-huh and so you're keeping the ball in their court to talk. Absolutely what comes next. You just wait and it's hard but that's where I see really and there there is then ideally a moment. Where your kid asks you a question Okay and if your kid asks you a question by all Oh means answer the question and what about parents for example who are just taking away their kids phone so this is what I'm seeing? They're like well. I pay for the phone bill and so I'm taking away the phone and I say well.

00:15:00 - 00:20:01

Do they have a computer while they need the computer to do. They have a friend with a computer or others will say I'm GonNa Monitor their phone. I mean I can't even imagine I would. I would suggest that most fifteen year olds are more tech savvy than most forty year old. I mean I know there are exceptions but I remember the phone calls where my mom was like. But how do I plug in the VCR. which which button is that? There's many remotes. So what how can you resist that temptation to say. I'm the adults here. I pay the bills. I'm in charge. How can you check that How does that rule out as an interview for the next time something goes wrong with your kid and they need to come? I'm too I love that. Is that an effective interview process. I really appreciate that that it's this interview. It's an application so what the consequences of my actions. which is that? They don't WanNa talk to you next time. Okay so I have a story for you. Okay you ready okay. So it's not. It's not about sex thing exactly it's about porn but but a parent's perspective that her son had no access to it. Okay so she did not have Internet at home he did not have a computer okay So no Wifi. No computer no phone. Nothing at her home so she had a laptop that he was allowed to use for the context of his schoolwork. So there was a laptop in the home It was hers exclusively and there was a printer to print off papers so oh he brought her laptop. She was aware that he was barring her laptop. He went to his dad's house where there was Wifi. He downloaded pornography onto the computer. Brought it back back to their house and printed off on the color printer so your question is like that. That's expensive ink right. That's that's like a return to the LP's so music she. You found the porn his closet when she was cleaning his closet out and was like. Oh my God where did you get this. How did you even get access to it? They'll find access. Of course worse. They have more time. It's not that they're more tech savvy. Okay because some of them aren't some of the mark to the would they do. Have the guy printed. Yeah what they do time that his parents we don't have they have twenty hours a week to dedicate towards getting access to something that you have denied them access to easily early and they have the will. Yeah Right. Do you have twenty five hours a week to prevent that. It's unlikely and also if we really I don't I love the word empowerment because I get it gets kinda thrown around for marketing. But you do want to raise be part of them becoming more empowered and part of that is helping them to guiding them supporting them so that they can make decisions as opposed to having someone control what they can and can't have. Yeah your goal. Your goal as a parent is for them to be self sufficient. That's your goal. It has not for them to listen to you at every point in time until you die. You're you want them to be a self sufficient adult and we're talking about a fifteen year old in three years. They will be an adult. Now I know and we have these arbitrary numbers there are so closely we talk about how time flies when you have kids right there one year old and then all of a sudden they're eight will guess what fifteen and eighteen or closer not not only in numbers but in perceived time that time flies by. And you gotTa Know Your Con- that your relationship with them at eighteen becomes the only relevant one thing they can walk out of your house and do whatever they want to without any impact without any connection so you have to be in that relationship mindset so my daughter got arrested last year. She was seventeen and she called me and her father and said Hey and about to get arrested I'm going to go and Protests the Cavanaugh appointment by closing down a road and doing it with other activists who have lots of experience closing things ms down and getting arrested. But I wanted you to know and if you say no I'll reconsider. That was not because she had to do do that. That was all about the context of our relationship with her so her father went down and stood by and watched while she got arrested like he was there the entire time he followed them to the jail like. That's that's kind of support for a kid whether you agree with their policies are not and she knows that that we have her back in a way that not a lot of teenagers feel like their parents have their back end. She came out of it. Saying I will never ever get arrested again.

00:20:02 - 00:25:06

That's the one time of cultivated that over time. Yeah yeah years here's work. It's interesting because it's not just about sex. We're talking talking about sex because that's what we talk about but this has to do with you know financial values familial values political values religious values spiritual Schwa- values. It's not a you know an insular conversation where we're totally closed and somewhat take a dictatorship approach to everything anything else but with sex will be open. We have to really brought in this to the relationship as a whole. Yeah and I can't tell you. How grateful lamb that she came out of that being like getting arrested is not for me me exactly and she was seventeen? Which means it's not on a permanent record? Okay like there's all these lovely elements to it that I was like. Yeah like this. Is it wise risk at this point in her life and something she wanted to stand for something that is re willing to speak up for and when you talk about being mindful of. Is this interview as I reapply to be a contractor and my part in my child's life is going well is it going to lead to future contracts. It reminds me of choosing and choosing family and chosen family. And how in so many communities whether it's the queer community or even in other cultures where you might be closer to a cousin than a sibling because the family sticks to stay together as a huge group have people and my family. We're cousins are much closer than siblings. It's not just about blood. Were choosing to have these relationships in every relationship for many of us is a choice and so I think that's a really really great approach now. I'm still struggling with the be quiet. So how can you. If if your tendency is just to speak. Is there something we can do. Is it like three deep breaths. Should we visualize a cloud. How can you seem like you'd probably be skilled and thoughtful before you speak for those of us who aren't always? How do we show up? Yeah a couple of things. Yes if you're finding yourself feeling like you just have to talk. You probably need to put a pin in the conversation and say hey you know what. I am feeling very overwhelmed and I don't want to. I want this conversation to be thoughtful. Can we have this tomorrow at ten o'clock and then go and just word vomit on a friend or therapist or partner. Whoever it needs to be we're vomit on them? Not on your child never vomit on your child. Nev- I mean the living the dream to not vomit on your family members. Your child gets to vomit on you. Yes although hopefully not by the time they're a teenager hopefully you hope that they've got more aim so yeah. Go Away if you need to just if you just can't not talk talk somewhere else but then focus really intently. What the talking is doing really so for looking at why people talk out loud when they're thinking and I think that that's ultimately what's happening here is that people are thinking and those words are just coming out and if we look developmentally at why why people talk when they're thinking it's because they're they're grappling with issues that are just slightly beyond their comfort level and so words are just the happening in their head and they spill out of their mouth for that reason and so knowing that that's what's happening in thinking to yourself okay? This is putting me outside of my comfort zone so I have to find something to bring me back into my comfort zone and maybe that's by playing basketball the ball. Maybe that's by word to your partner before you come in and talk with your kid. Maybe that's Bhai Dueling on a piece of paper or knitting or something else also takes that extra like energy off from your mouth a beach chewing gum right. There's all of these different techniques that people can views but then focus on. What's my question and bring that to like tie it together because you can't talk to your kid about what your question is going to be because now you're asking questions so like put together in your brain line those words up and put all all of your extra energy that's still remaining into that? Internal Cognitive Process Act gives you something to focus on okay. I really appreciate that. I like the approach. Are you able to just Name name the ten steps for parents. Okay so the ten steps from the book breaking the Hush Factor Rule number one. Know yourself rule number two. It's not about you remember three. Stop talking rule number four start. Listening will number five you get one question rule number six do something else rule number seven pleasure and pain which means you have to talk about both.

00:25:07 - 00:30:19

Most people only talk about one rule number for eight be cool as a cucumber rule number nine. Bring it on. We'll number ten never surrender. What does that mean? It's like sisyphus you. You just have to keep pushing that boulder up the hill and finding joy in the process and being thankful sometimes when we feel frustrated. I think oh I don't have to do you know you don't have to drive your kids somewhere you get to drive your kids somewhere. Yeah so Camus. Really Rian visioned the Sisyphus fable table of Sisyphus being eternally condemned to pushing a boulder up a hill. Having roll down pushing it up the hill again having roll down and one of the quotes from cameras. Revision of this is the struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart and that's really. I think I'm Lamonica. Mike have what parenting is in so many ways and particularly around these really hard topics where people don't feel comfortable. I like that I like like that analogy. I like the re envisioning of a story. That's supposed to be about torture. Yeah So the book is available to download on a pays year able model at hush factor DOT COM or. You can buy a hard copy places where you buy books. Well they also WANNA thank. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate you sharing the ten tips. We're going to put a download on the podcast website as well and definitely go check out the book. I WanNa talk about one last thing before I let you go. And this there's another area of your expertise that I don't think we talk about enough. And that's how to break up with someone and how to be broken up with and this applies whether your parents supporting teen through their first break-up or perhaps you're thinking about breaking up with someone or you're not happy with the way you handled your last break-up how do we break up with compassion. Compassion and efficacy. I make them so sexy and so. I think that we need to the first question is do you feel physically and emotionally safe in your break-up process or do you not feel physically emotionally safe in the break-up process because there's two really really different approaches. So I WANNA start by. If it's not if you do not feel safe what do you do. Because that's that's that's where it's not necessarily about kindness or efficacy. It's about personal safety and it's about building a support team of people around you. It's about not knowing what your resources are for unhealthy and abusive relationships in Europe local area. It's about Doing it digitally in public. So you know knowing that you have a place to be. That is safe. But when you do the the break-up it is via attacks message or email or whatever else it is. It is clear concise and it is an end So that's its own own really special kind of circumstance and I don't want people to get confused about the need to include kindness if you're worried for your own mm safety. Yeah I appreciate you bringing that up. It's sort of like fire wire gas glass checking for those things. First before you worry about someone else. Yeah definitely think and and the emotional abuse being just as valid of a reason to do that as physical all of us looking for yourself your safety first and then if you if you are in a relationship where it it's not a matter of emotional abuse or physical abuse. I like logical and you feel safe. Yeah so this is definitely the more fun part of the compensation so for people who do feel safe you you know. There's I think a stereotype of ending of a relationship as something that is clear shade. It's not about you wits about me or I'm just not in the right space for this right now there's There's like this diffusion of responsibility without any meaning behind it. Those just become vapid like useless tropes that don't actually mean anything and and that is basically just the same thing as just walking away and ghosting someone interesting so bringing a little more personality to the processes really lovely and there are ways for breakup to happen that are good and can be really life affirming relationship affirming for everybody involved left and maybe we can see breakup as not always a bad thing. We were talking this weekend. About how lessons from consensual non monogamy. He can apply to monogamy monogamy hence to measure relationships in terms of longevity and CNN approaches tend to measure relationships in terms as a fulfilment you know I have seen that monogamy actually measures things in terms of whether someone dies to get out actually in the marital contract.

00:30:19 - 00:35:03

I it's until death do you part. Yeah it's not just about longevity but it's about death at the end so if somebody a young widow that can be considered a successful relationship attention you know so. Even if it wasn't very long nobody was at fault. It was just a death and that's why prescribed mandatory monogamy can be so toxic reasons. Why and people can absolutely have very happy healthy fulfilling monogamous relationships absolutely and they can end and it can be have been a really successful relationship for everybody involved where it was the right thing at the right time? It was supportive of who they were and where they were going and now it's time for them to be going and other places with different people and that can be beautiful and so- honoring being the relationship that is ending is an important part of that especially if it's been a longer relationship now we're talking about like a three week dating thing thing or like. Oh we were you know quite serious for six months those are those are different right. I don't know that we need to spend a lot of time. Honoring what they were. I mean I mean sure like we had fun together. I really appreciate it our time and I feel like I learned a lot about you and learned a lot about me in the process. And that's been really great and now now I'm realizing that I'm going to going in other directions So we have this paradigm of Communication styles styles. We talk about. I'm sure you've talked about with aggressive. Assertive passive and passive aggressive and most breakup are done in a passive aggressive way. That's so true. Why why would we do that? Why wouldn't we bring the same assertive capacities that we would in any other real conversation conversation? I think we're trying to tell ourselves that we're not hurting anyone. Which is why we all hurt people all the time? Yes in an hour talking about that in relationships that we hurt each other in so many ways. But we've created this hierarchy in which some ways are worse than others If you you cheat. It is the ultimate transgression besides being abusive But does it have to be like. I did this thing and I regret doing this thing. I said I wouldn't do. And you know we. We hurt each other in so many ways. Does this one needs to be worse. Have we made it worse. Because of our cultural cultural prescriptions of of monogamy or toxic monogamy. So the break-up process can my understanding of of those communication styles is that an aggressive communication style is primarily or exclusively focusing on the speaker a passive communication style is is primarily exclusively focusing on the other person not the speaker k right passive aggressive is pretending to think about the other person but actually thinking about yourself and assertive is where we take. Everybody's needs into account I liked that framing. So that's the first thing that we use it on hushed and Oliver Curriculum dots the dynamic. That's the framing when we're talking with people about how to communicate with your partner Or a soon to be not partner is that that's how you think about what you're going about doing. And so when we're balancing Needs in the context of conversation right so not in the context of like. Will you need me to stay in the relationship. So I'm GonNa stay that's different. I'm talking about what each person needs for the conversation to be effective as a communication dynamic and bringing the break-up process into Out and so what what might you need. What might your soon to be ex partner? Need in conversation where they're being broken up. Well that'll be specific to them and probably you were going to be pretty good at predicting not because you know them right and so this could be environment. This could could be timing related. This could be a Kutama related like would it be better if we did it over ice cream or you know what can make you more physically uncomfortable. Yeah should I call your friend and let your friend know that you're going to be in a rough place or should I not call your friend. You know all of these things play into why. What can we do to make ending relationships as caring and supportive process as we want relationships to be because our relationship? We still have a relationship with that person.

00:35:03 - 00:40:06

It's just not a romantic or sexual relationship. Typically but we still have a relationship right. Everybody has relationships absorbs with everybody else in the world. We don't know what those are always and sometimes they grow and sometimes they shrink but once you've been in a relationship with someone you don't ever not have a relationship relationship with them even if you don't talk rice something there there's history and this makes me think about back to business the exit interview Right so I always think You you know if somebody's working with or for you in an ideal situation you you want to see them grow. You want to see them do big things now. If you're an employer you want to create the opportunities for them to do things with you because they're fabulous and you don't WanNa lose them but you know if somebody moves on and you're happy for them we stay or whether or not you're happy for them. We do an exit interview to learn from a business perspective oftentimes for the company. It's what could we do better right. Where where should we schiff things up next time for somebody like you is it universally applicable of course not but you learn about yourself in that process uh-huh so that makes me think that could we treat breakup with that same opportunity to learn? So what. How do we begin a conversation and I know it's not the same for anyone? Do you have any general guidelines. I know that one of the things. I'm really bad at is that when I'm starting the conversation I always go so everybody hates it. Don't do that. It's going to be my ringtone time-saving that because it's wildly passive right. It's not bringing that cut clarity to the conversation. And so we all have these tells and we know we have them and our partner is going to be most aware of them you know what are your tells her. When you're about to do something you don't like doing is it that you You fiddle with your with your phone or is it that. You're not turning aimed towards them like what kind of distance are you putting between you and that person and if this is coming as a surprise which some breakup are in some breakup breakup or not Turning away from them in that moment it's probably not really attending to their needs. So you know there doesn't it probably needs to be some physical distance. You don't Wanna be like lying in bed after just having made love. I'm imagining for most people. That would be a bad time in in a bad level of physical intimacy to then break off so as you said setting up your physical space and then saying something like I want to have a conversation about the context of our relationship. Are you available for that right now. And if they say no say okay. Let's pick a time in the next two days giving them a window. Yeah that does happen to where people will avoid talking because they know it's coming. I think there's a strong about that right. You can break up with me not today tomorrow. Not Wednesday Wednesday but many years in the future. I wish I could remember right now because then y'all Oh y'all is a new word. I learned down here in good words. A lovely word. And then y'all would've would've got a chance to hear me sing it but I'll have to do an insertion so you're setting up the space you're thinking about the physical component when you're being straightforward one challenge. I think people fall into is creating openings for the future that don't exist like well. Maybe we might get back to you. I don't do you got definitely law. You WanNa be really clear You know if you're firing someone it's not like well maybe you can come back tomorrow. Let's see how it goes. You either work cure or you don't work here. That doesn't mean that we may not have a relationship. It doesn't mean I might not even be able to provide you with a reference. I may even know another place you can work it would. It'd be a better fit where they have the budget where you know your skills will be better utilized. It doesn't mean you're out of my life forever but I am clear that this is not going to be a fit. Yeah Yeah you know if you as an employer if you're firing someone or let them go for whatever reason and you say oh but maybe you can come back and contract with us. Yeah about Anina and your intention is never to have that person come back in contract with you. Don't say that if you're if you're breaking up with someone in USA. Oh but maybe console sleep together. That's not meeting that other person's needs that's giving them all kinds of false. Hope you know. It is a rare circumstance in which a committed particularly monogamous relationship resolves as a friends with benefits situation that is good and healthy for the person who has broken broken up with absolutely now. Are there some questions to consider asking one another in the break-up process things you should talk about you could talk about Out It's a really interesting question And I think it would depend you know if you're married and you have kids.

00:40:06 - 00:43:41

There's lots of questions okay. You know if you've been then If you're married without kids there are still some substantial questions. I mean beyond the practical So some people know wide. They're being broken up with and other people don't and I do think the being honest about why our relationship is useful. Oh I'm ending the relationship Asian ship because I feel like I actually need my partner to do this thing that I know you can't do and I've been asking for it for a year or so now and it's not something that you keep wanting to do and you can't and I really respect and I don't want you to try and do things that you can't do and so I think it's time for me to move on. Thank you so much for trying really hard. I saw that you did your best and I hope that you find somebody who needs needs what you have and just because you don't meet somebody's needs doesn't mean that every person you date in the future future is going to have those same needs. Oh yeah absolutely so. We're talking about perhaps the person who's initiating but if you're on what we might call the receiving end maybe you didn't know this was is coming or you're not as keen to break up You you also have to work on yourself to know that it's deficit that existed in this relationship that perhaps APPs led to its dissolution. Doesn't mean that it will be universally seen as a deficit in all other relationship might be seen as a positive You Know I. I wish wish that we could throw out the idea of like one perfect match if I could change one thing about our culture and how. How have you relationships? That perfect match idea would be very high on the list and the notion that one person can fulfil all of these needs dates frightening. Yeah well I think that's some really good food for thought I think I really appreciate your perspective. A lot of it is really new to me especially the silence piece around listening listening to a teen. And it's interesting because as I said Brandon talks about that all the time in business negotiations. I'm the one who saying. Hey use your business skills in the relationship and I missed that one C.. Brought that to light for me As well as looking at how your communication styles else affect how you break up and how you manage breakup and I think I've probably made suggestions are offered insights that do fall into the passive aggressive territory. And so I need to rethink those and I find myself doing this all the time thinking that I've seen that something works but it doesn't mean and it works for everyone and it may not work in the bigger picture right may not be as effective and so you have written multiple books. And where can people find information Dan about your books. Probably the best place is my organization's website so that's unhatched Dot Org U. N. H. U. S. HDD Dot Org awesome will be sure linked to that folks following along with all of this work really important work and check out the books as well. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank thank you so much for having me at it and thank you to you for listening thanks to desire resorts be sure to follow them at desire. Experience wherever you're at hope you're having a great one one thousand you're listening to the sex with Dr Jazz podcast improve your sex life improve your life.