Overcome Sexual Fear, Open Up and Share Deeper Intimacy

Happier Couples

Overcome Sexual Fear, Open Up and Share Deeper Intimacy

36:08

 

Jess discusses emotional vulnerability, sexual shame, strategies for discussing sexual needs, why some people cheat and the Madonna/whore dichotomy with Toronto-based sex therapist, Kat Kova. Kat also helps Jess to open up about her greatest sexual fear.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Overcome Sexual Fear, Open Up and Share Deeper Intimacy

00:00:05 - 00:05:24

You're listening to the sacs with dr jess podcast sacks and relationship advice. You can us tonight. Hey hey hey this is just a rally your friendly neighborhood sexologist and i am joined today by individual couple and sex therapist toronto-based cat cova. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Now your leisure your sex therapist. What drew you to the world of sex therapy. Yes so. I'm your friendly neighborhood sex there. <hes> and it's so funny i actually people don't really believe me when i say this but i wanted to be a sex therapist. From the age of ten i i was so in love with a doctor sue johanneson on the sunday night sex show and what i found to be so interesting about her was that she just delivered education and in an entertaining way and she seemed to really be meeting the need that that didn't seem to be met anywhere else that i was exposed to and so for better or worse yeah that's kind kind of how i got into it and i always really wanted to <hes> develop into someone that i felt like was missing in my life who i wanted to talk to when i was a little kid so that's kind of part of my story so sue johannesen had a nationally syndicated television show in canada. It used to be on sunday night so she. She was sort of our canadian version of dr ruth. She was a little bit more subdued than dr ruth right a little bit less of a caricature you say i i found her to be outrageous. I mean have you seen her on conan o'brien. Yes she's very funny. She likes drops a dildo to her. I don't remember that she's about the eighty or so. I mean i thought she was eighty back when she was on the show in the eighties so i i can't imagine but she was really great at what she did and she really did it. Just deliver the goods matter of fact of course people will look back and say oh but she said this or she said that yes. It was twenty thirty years ago. Some things have changed but she was a trailblazer in the field so you followed in her footsteps. Did you go straight and steady sexuality right away or is it a path that kind of led back to to where you are today yeah. It's definitely something that i was led back to you because they didn't tell anyone at the age of hand. I wanted to be a sex therapist. I thought they would really look let me look. I was very strange and people still do by the way <hes> because it's very unorthodox particularly in my community which is the serbian community <hes> and it was something that i really decided on when i was about twenty two and i was alone in tokyo jio working there <hes> and decided i really wanna do something that has a lot of purpose in my life. When i was in tokyo is working in a job that i didn't really like take a year off from school so it was between my b._a. In psychology and then i decided to do a certificate and sexuality studies at york university versity and went on to do my master's at the university of wealth in couple and family therapy 'cause i thought that would really give me an opportunity to discuss couple issues and and how sexuality is such a big important part of couple relationships so that was a really good path for allowed me to do what i really want to do which is to talk about insights with couples and individuals all day long and so the couples who come to you what would you say is the top issue with which they're presenting. I would say hey that with individuals men and women. I don't see a lot of trans folks. I think they have a lot of barriers to accessing <unk> treatment <hes> so it's mostly men and women and couples and the all present most commonly with <hes> desire issues so what they would terminus thomas low desire or erectile dysfunction say that with quotations because it's you know i don't like that term. It's it's not not necessarily a dysfunction and it's interesting because i took a couple of calls and emails last week from healthy young men in their thirties who are having difficulties with erection and psychogenic meaning that they're thinking about something. That's stressing them out. Usually oh my gosh am i going to lose erection and they develop develop a physiological response to that anxiety which is that they lose their erection and of course cyclical and circular because they think about it. They lose it. They think about they lose. It and i don't know if you find this but simply the reassurance that this happens to every damn person with a penis every single one of y'all at some point in time more than once it will happen helps them to know that they're not alone because they have this issue oftentimes they stay in a relationship relationship that they're not even happy with because they don't want to move onto another partner who's going to find out and in the secrecy breach shame and the shame of course reinforces the anxiety and and and so on but simply the reassurance that you know you're not alone like this is.

00:05:24 - 00:10:17

This is surmountable. This can be overcome. That's the biggest thing it's like it will happen. It's really reassuring sharing to know that it will happen and a little trick. I think i like to <hes> tell guys who are struggling with this or people with penises who are struggling with this is to actually intentionally lose their erection so that a gain comfort with it. Something called the stop restart techniques so you're kind of just on your own or with a partner you're having some stimulation you get an erection and then you intentionally stopped the stimulation lose the election and and then you kind of keep going and you stop and restart and it's great because you just learn not to freak out and you're kind of cured from it the next time that it happens. You don't freak out because the world did not end. Your partner didn't run away. It's not the last time you'll ever have sex and this. This is a cognitive behavioral method right in terms of facing your anxiety head on actually go and expose yourself to that anxiety provoking stimulus and and you see that you know what it's okay it happened. It doesn't mean it'll happen every single time now. Let's talk about desire. So why do your clients. It's not experience the desire they want yeah. That's a really great question. No i'm just circling back to your other question. About what are the most common issues i would say so erectile again not dysfunction but we throw around that term because it's so commonly used in the literature so e d desire and communication issues <hes> and i think all three they kind of at the root of it are <hes> problems with anxiety different types of anxiety and it could be the fear it could be shame that's present within that anxiety and there's so many different influences i think <hes> so many different factors that contribute to it so the big the the big thing that i see is beliefs about sexuality impacting. You know who can initiate what what can i say during sex. Can i get what i want. During intercourse or intimacy or can even get what i wanted my relationship my allowed. What do i deserve to say what i want from my partner or say what it is that i want and get it from my partner so cultural beliefs jason kind of the societies that were raised in they have a really big influence on actual physiological responses and the connection between the brain and the body is is just so i think it's not really talked about but we're not just floating heads on disconnected from our body the to talk to one another and inform the responses that we have down there. So what do we do to overcome. Let's let's take a common challenge so somebody feels shame around asking for what they want because it's not a dominantly reflected desire so it's maybe it's not sex in the dark in the missionary position with someone you love. Maybe they want something kinky or maybe they want something a little wilder. Maybe they want it more frequently. How do you overcome the shame <hes> and simply we come to terms with your own desires and feel good about what you want whether you want not at all or you want it every single day in some kinky way <hes> oh man i think it's a really personal journey for everyone and where i see this <hes> the most is in people that come into into therapy and they've just cheated on their partner <hes> and they've cheated not just with you know someone else and had the same type of sex but they actually went and they got their needs met for a particular kink or for a particular fetish that they've never actually revealed to their partner because as of incredible shame profound shame around this and usually it happens in the shadows right like an affair happens in the shadows where it's a bit more protected and the same stakes are not there. A relationship is not at stake love. Perhaps sometimes is not at stake. Sometimes you go a sex worker and they provide that kind of service free of judgment free of shame aiman <hes> free of any kind of attachment to or expectation and so it becomes this really freeing thing that allows people to explore their kinks and fetishes and <hes> at sometimes at the expense of their relationship when when the fares discovered <hes> and often i find the other partners really upset that they didn't just tell them and so.

00:10:17 - 00:15:03

I think it's just knowing like you can really really be yourself. It's something worth doing to try to be yourself in your relationship and not hide from your partner how to go about that. That's really that's very very scary thing to do. Yeah i think oftentimes we tell ourselves a story in our head. If i tell my partner this they will freak out if i reveal what i really want. They're going to judge me. If i share my deepest darkest most salacious fantasy they're gonna go running for the hills and running for the hills would be the negative consequence being judge would be the negative consequence quincy your partner freaking out would be the negative consequence but then you go go and find that someplace else cheat on them and all three of those negative consequences arise nonetheless and in addition to those negative consequences a lot of hurt it on both sides and probably intensified shame on your own so there is this need to communicate so when a couple comes to you and they're having trouble communicating hating their fantasies or the desire is whether they be kinky or edgy or vanilla. How do you facilitate that conversation. Is there an exercise you do with them in session or for homework mark while sometimes i get couples to kind of reveal their fantasies to one another <hes>. I think i was joking with you earlier when i when when i got here that i almost didn't make it there was a car accident on the way <hes> there was a power outage but my partner and i were in bed this morning too and we kind kind of accidentally slipped into talking about fantasies with one another and that was another reason that there was no car accident. The power is just is fine. We were just talking talking. Fantasy leads to sex oftentimes. I really kinda did and we didn't really expect for it to who <hes> but you know it was just kind of one of those things that kind of a showed a different side of ourselves to one another and esther pearl talks talks about this a lot when there's a bit of distance between you and your partner when there's a little bit of mystery or something is revealed that you didn't know about your partner who you've been taking. Maybe maybe for granted or who you think you knew everything about who feels so familiar to you. That's when that desire is created of course because when you first met them part of the allure of this person isn't that that they were younger or hotter or more exciting than it's that you didn't know them unknown exciting. You know i remember the moment i found out brandon had a rat till when he was little such turn see that ono attornal he totally had a rat tail but he did not told me about it but it's so cool when you've been with someone for so long to learn anything new about them whether it's a vulnerability or a fantasy or something from their past or something that concerns earns them and so okay so let's say i come to you with my partner and i am having trouble talking about a specific fantasy. Is there a question you try and address. Is there a way you can try and draw out. I'll tell you one way i do it. In a couple okay is i have the whole group draw their fantasies and they only have a minute and most people can't draw i mean some people are annoying and they're great artists. Good for your people. Most of us have to label things and then we crinkle them into a ball. We throw them all all around the room and then when we don't know where horse has landed it becomes anonymous we open them up and we try and decipher them and it's really funny because i remember brian included mine once and it was just threesome and somebody said this one is having sex with a donkey and a dog. I'm like that's not a donkey and a dog. Those are humans man in june and sex consensual human threesome sex but it can be really funny and i think the laughter cuts the tension. Oh i love that you're going to definitely do therapy pinky that is amazing. It's kind of like the snowball technique great. Oh my god. I love that with fantasies. That's brilliant <hes> <hes> no. There's you know what i think coming into sex therapy. That is the practice first of all therapy. I think happens opens within the context of a relationship so you as a therapist have a relationship with your client and it kind of parallels or mirrors the relationships that you have outside of therapy room and and sometimes we can use that information highlight at back to the client to say like hey actually. I'm noticing that you're holding back. You're having a really hard time with this. Can you tell me why and kind of assess figure out what is the reason behind not being able to talk about something and and then when you identify what it is like it might be well.

00:15:03 - 00:20:14

I never really got to talk about sex with my parents or with friends or i've always been a really shy person percents then you can work on that but they get that practice. I ask some very direct questions. You know almost with every client i ask and do you masturbate. How do you masturbate. When did you start masturbating. What kind of pornography or fantasy do you use. What's been a longstanding fantasy that you've had god which really reveals a lot about people as you said you decipher them and you kind of look at what's going on for that person and in doing that in actually just getting that experience and talking to someone maybe for the first time about such personal things they get the experience and they get the confidence confidence to then go and talk to their partner and have that same type of intimate i call it intimacy with my clients because we have really intimate conversations and we have a connection and <hes> that they can go ahead and do that with their partner. Yeah and we often use the word intimacy as a euphemism for sex when in fact that's really not what intimacy is sex can be a part of intimacy but as you said these conversations can be even feel even more deeply meaningful so i wanna go back to those questions because some people will be able to go seek hack ova at her therapy practice in toronto others will be able to get in touch with you for phone and online counseling but for those who don't for those who want to start today those those were some difficult questions you asked specifically the one about how do you masturbate <hes> because that would be difficult for many of us to describe and so if it's difficult to describe to a therapist it might be even good to start with yourself right now so if you want to wherever you are listening right now start with those questions for yourself so if you could go through them one more time oh sure okay if they are a little different because i'm sure every situation is different. Yeah absolutely <hes> i think kind of do you masturbate is number one because some people i just don't even think that that's accessible to them. <hes> what are some societal messages or messages you got from your parents and your religious just leaders or whatever it is about doing that. Is that a barrier and then if you do how do you do it to you. You know what parts of your your body do you touch. I have a vulva puppet. <hes> of course you kind of sex therapist doesn't have about that yeah. They actually got into the silent island auction at a sex conference funny in atlanta was the this scientific society for the scientific study of sexual exactly they had had a silent auction. I solve all the puppets me and another person. I were just fighting for. It's ended up being like outrageously expensive and so i try and use it as much as possible awesome so i get more bang for me. Gotta get that money's worth spending money on volvo what you want every last drop. I have two in the drawer next to you. Every i'm not surprised every last drop that was epic so anyways i kind of use that and i ask the people like where where do you touch yourself. <hes> if i'm working with couples like do you know where she or he or they like to be touched etched and sometimes they don't even know the proper words for the different body parts which are so important. What part do you test you. Catch your entire volva a to touch the clitoral hood you insert some fingers or toy into your vagina and do you know the difference. And when did you start. What are you fantasize about. You know how do you feel about it. How do you feel about it. I think it's a great place for all of us to start that set a lot of questions. We work in the field. We ask other people to do this contemplation to share with us but even i think for me to stop and think about those things right now would be really useful to better understand myself and part of why we don't communicate with our partners is because we don't even know what we want ourselves. We don't know what our sexual values. Oh you is are. We don't know what our own desires are because the messages around sex are so not only strong but conflicting <hes> right you're supposed to be so sexual and so good good at it but not too good right or not to sexual and of course it varies with your gender with your age with your race with your class all of these fact with your your body type your ability all of those things interfere or intersect with what we're allowed to want what we're allowed to do absolutely yeah. We have that whole madonna hord. I caught him. E going on that we grow up with these are things you can do outside of marriage. These are things that you can do within marriage or a long term partnership. Although it's usually marriage we'll talk about that the madonna whore complex because i don't think we've talked about that on the podcast for ya i mean it's this idea that with you know with your wife for your the mother of your child you can only have a certain type of sex and maybe more polite type of sex and then you know outside side of your marriage you can actually explorer some of those kings or fetishes or something.

00:20:15 - 00:25:09

You know a bit more naughty <hes> with someone else right right but you can't combine those two things together. You can't look at your wife. Let's say for example. We're using kind of heterosexual context and within the context text of marriage <hes> you can't see her as both a mother and a woman sexual woman a desiring woman a naughty woman <hes> and and this happens a lot and is really i see that a lot linked to when people people go out and have affairs unfortunately right and sometimes it has to do with the relationship where all you ever talk about is parenting and your children but sometimes sometimes it is. I think a cultural learning that results in this mental block that you did the obviously we're looking to overcome this dichotomy because if you wanna be in a long term monogamous relationship you're going to have to learn to see your partner regardless of gender as sexy as a sex object and i tell people this all the time like just because you love and respect your partner doesn't mean you can't treat them like a piece of meat sometimes or go food my vegetarian friends. I mean you wanna look at them like an animal. I'm all right and you can do that and be respectful and you can play with lines of playful. Let's say role playing disrespect. That's something i love like but my husband loves me so much. He is so nice to me. I feel like anything i do. He's just always gonna love me and so so i'm quite turned on by the subversive of which is feeling a little jealous feeling not good enough. Do i actually in life. Wanna feel not good enough of course not but insects. I love taking that subversive emotion because i feel so safe and playing with it a little <hes> so can i ask you something about your relationship. <hes> does having that type of emotional closeness and safety with brandon does does that allow you due to be a little bit more free and a little bit more kincannon your sex life yet yeah yeah you know i've always said that you know i think the formula is to build a foundation that is so strong so healthy and so loving and so respectful that you can make space for risk because if we're already on shaky ground i'm not gonna wanna go to those risky places like and of of course we have times in our year in our month in our relationship where we are more on shaky ground. I can even speak on a micro level with my cycle like. I don't want want those same subversive. Perhaps people would consider them demeaning experiences when i'm when i'm approaching my period because of my hormones are changing. My mood is changing. My that confidence is not as high. I'm tired. I'm cranky. I'm mad about the mess on the floor. I don't know i actually do but i want a different type of have sex and and so you have to have the ability to communicate the specificity of your desires to your partner because it's one thing for me to say hey babe. I want you to make me feel jealous. It turns me on okay but if he does that at the wrong time in the wrong place when i'm in the wrong mood that's gonna backfire so have to be more specific and say hey by love to feel jealous when and before you do it. I need you to make me feel this way and after you do it. This is how you can support me specific very sorry. I love and you have to continually do that in a relationship. You can't just have one conversation about right talk. Vote the the birds and the bees with your bone and you just have to keep on talking about it because you're every i mean we don't exist in a vacuum humor. Sexuality doesn't exist in a vacuum something that a coworker said to you earlier that day could spark some kind of trauma that you experienced danced when you're younger and you're in a completely different place and you need a different type of nurturing perhaps through sexuality or a different type of energy exchange through <hes> sex yeah yeah and so what can couples do say on a daily basis. I love to think of things they can do in sixty seconds if they know they're feeling a certain way today and maybe they didn't maybe a coworker didn't trigger my trauma but they piss me off. They pushed one of my buttons and i come home and ninety nine out of one hundred days. If brennan were to approach specific way it would feel good. Today's not the day. How can we communicate that to our partners. When we walk through the door before we get home. It's such a great question yeah because it kind of takes consent outside of the bedroom and really highlights how important that is to that we highlight for our partners or communicate to our partners rather <hes> the boundaries that we have around our energy levels right and saying something like right now babe.

00:25:09 - 00:30:16

I just just need ten minutes to decompress from work. I need to take a shower. I just need to just have quiet. That's what i'm really craving right now uh-huh and when i have those ten minutes it's going to be so delicious. I'm gonna feel so happy that i had them and then we can reconnect and an to your question about what what's something that couples can do in sixty seconds. Let's see when they're trying to negotiate or someone is trying to initiate sexual encounter run erotic encounter with someone and you're not really in the mood. I challenge those people who are a default no to give themselves some time time to really understand where that no is coming from is it. Is it a just a no because you have some rules. Rules about. Sexuality is a no because you think if i don't get enough sleep then tomorrow is going to be things. I mean this tomorrow. We're going to be chaos. Is that anxiety what is going on for you and give yourself like ten. I mean sixty seconds. Give yourself ten minutes to figure out what is actually going on one for you and if that no can be turned into all right. Maybe let's. Let's kinda. See how it goes and know that you can stop at any time and you yeah you can say no. I'm not in the mood and you can say if you prefer no. I'm not in the mood. Let's see if i can get in the mood right because there there is this myth of spontaneous desire like go to work all day cook dinner. Do the dishes you know help. The kids was home. We're put them to bed. Talk to your mother in law on the phone. Get into bed and like yeah. Let's do head but not particularly realistic yeah when you're first dating you. Might you know carry around gum or mints all the time. You're dressed to the nines. You're looking really flawless trying really hard right to put your best foot forward but when you're let's say you've been living together for a while l. and you've seen each other through the good times and the bad times through health and sickness and wake up in the morning and you have like really bad breath and your partner rolls over and they're like hey what's up abe wanna fool around and your response might be an immediate no because you're not feeling that fresh if that's that's the case get up and take a shower. <hes> there is no such thing as spontaneity. It's a myth right that the myth of spontaneity is interesting interesting because we do believe that in the beginning everything we did was spontaneous when in fact the opposite is true hours and days went into planning thing and creating what seemed to be at the moment a spontaneous encounter false right but we fun back then right so you had to make a plan plan to meet up you probably if it's modern dating you've texted and been a little bit playful before you've gotten dressed. You've gotten ready. You've carved out the time. I'm somehow your roommates not going to be home or you're gonna find a quiet place to do a private place to do it or not. You know if you're wild like that. Maybe someplace public and we look back and say oh but it just happened back then when as you said it's so a lot of effort went into it but when we ask people in relationships to do the same they're like odd seems seems like a lot of work seems like a lot of work and also there's a resistance to be being intimate with someone if that desire doesn't feel spontaneous and that's true for men and for women like if they're not feeling tinguely down there spontaneously <hes> they think that the are not interested or that that it's not an option and so they wait and they wait and they wait and they say ou planned sachs like a sex day like a a night out that supposed to result in sacks. That's not cool. That's not spontaneous. That's not sexy but i think the exact opposite is true. I think you're intentionally nationally creating a scenario where you can both relax and creates base to be in the mood. I and to be together intimately. It doesn't even always have to result in the sex because i hear a lot of for instance. New parents say you know what if we can get a night alone. We just want a good nights and i think that's perfectly quickly find too. You know i i've been in that scenario where i'm away for a while and i think i'm you know ms brandon and i miss sleeping with him and i missed the sex and i think that the moment i get home home going to want to jump his bones but honestly sometimes i'm flying back from india or sometimes. I'm flying back from china and time i get here. I don't want to jump anyone's bones. I i need to sleep. I and then we can do it in the morning or if we do it the next day or the next day we will survive you don't have to. I think we make too big of a deal about sex. I think we do so. I mean we have been talking about for the making a big deal but it it yeah i mean we kind of were over sexton under sex the same time and we have this idea about how much how much sex we should be having.

00:30:16 - 00:35:13

That's not really an important question. People are obsessed i with it. They are obsessed how often they're doing it. They're counting instead of just focusing on the quality and the experience and how good they're doing it. I fell into that yeah. Yeah i am me to i fall into the pressure. Like how long has it been since we've done it and for me. It often has to do with my own frustration with myself for not making king time before you go i want. I want to ask you something about my life so brennan. I have been together a while. If i were to come to you in therapy and had to pick an issue issue to address because you do do brief solution focused therapy so we can look for specific outcome. The issue. I address involves what i might call complacency so so we've been together eighteen years we have sex pretty regularly feels really really good. It's tough like so good for me but i find that oftentimes. I just wanna do it. In the way that it works works like the way i know it works at sort of like going to a new restaurant so i could go to a new restaurant but i really don't have a good meal and i know this other restaurants really good and then i might miss out on trying something new and exciting so you know we've done lots of wild stuff over the years whether it's simple stuff like toys to going to sex clubs zirkin clubs or more edgy stuff and right now. I feel like we're in this tried and true period and here's the thing so i ask asked myself what i would tell a client on one hand. It feels really good for me like it's just really really good so. Why do i feel pressure to spice it up and fix what's broken. I don't need to be swinging from chandeliers chandeliers. I don't need to be frolicking in the woods <hes> because it is feeling really good on the other hand. I know that i shouldn't wait until i'm bored to do something about it. So should i keep doing what i'm doing and maybe change it up once in a while to try something new <hes> and so yeah what should i do save my sex life and i mean it doesn't sound like you need saving. It sounds like what you've been doing is really pleasurable and it works and it's so good <hes> even after eighteen years now wow i'm one hundred we met really young well. You're you're a young looking hundred oil of olay thrust today thrice so oh my advice. I don't really give advice. I am curious about where the it sounds like. There's a little bit of presure sure feeling shoes pace it. Oh and you're kind of looking at it's been a long term relationship and we kinda keep doing the same thing over and over. That really works works for us. <hes> is there are some fear around what that means for you and your relationship. Yeah i think for me. It's always a fear of being bored because i get get bored really of being bored. I'm afraid i could get boring or being boring. Yes is more that yeah because i am you know. Maybe i need to take the time game and i wish brandon was here to talk to him about how he's feeling <hes> because i think i'm probably more easily open about what i want. <hes> but you're right. I'm fee. I fear being bored myself. And of course i fear being boring like the boring sexologist. Can that be about house. No yeah no i. I think i might start this podcast. I have those same exact fears right. I have those exact same fears but i find that if you can tell your partner that like hey i'm i'm feeling like i'm really enjoying what's happening but from time to time. I get a little bit scared that maybe you're bored and i mean what's really behind that is kind of an attachment fear right. You're afraid of losing someone. You're afraid if you don't keep their interest to sustain it long enough that they're we're going to look elsewhere among the will leave you. That's our biggest deepest fear of humans and so when you say that in the context of couples therapy and i use emotionally focused couples therapy. It's all about expressing what your deepest fears are to your partner when you're feeling that overwhelming emotion that that fear and then in doing got if your partners very responsive and if they're sensitive to your needs it's in those moments they can reassure you and that can lead to a different kind of connection and maybe a different kind of erotic experience too. I i'd like that so emotionally focused therapy which involves looking at your deepest fears as it applies to sex. I think i'm gonna try that so if i were to begin with one question for myself. Where would i begin if i'm not pleasing my partner if my partner is not sexually satisfied <hes> then what do i imagine will oh happen with my worst possible case scenario.

00:35:14 - 00:36:45

Maybe share that okay your partner with brandon not with all you folks on that note. We we have to stop. I'd love to have you back again. When brendan's here maybe we can do a sessions types types episode. I'm in that really interesting. So where can people find you cap so i do have a website where you can submit a contact contact for him if you're interested in coming in on your own or with a with a partner or partners <hes> it's w._w._w. Dot cat cova therapy dot com. My office is at three twenty danforth avenue and in suite two oh two and it's right next to chester station and so it's just a quick t. c. ride away from pretty much anywhere in the city us so that that's in toronto and also have a youtube channel coming out called. My therapist says as you know people can check in their subscribe and advanced. Thank you so much for being here really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having such a blast. I'll see you soon. Thank you thank you you to you for listening and thank you once again to desire resorts and cruises for your ongoing support of this podcast follow along at desire experience wherever you're at have a great week folks. Will we back every friday with a new episode. You're listening listening to the sex with dr jasser podcast improve your sex life improve your life.