Ambiamory, Polyamory, Open Relationships

Happier Couples

Ambiamory, Polyamory, Open Relationships

30:33

 

Are you monogamous? Consensually non-monogamous? Ambiamorous? Polyamorous? Have you explored all of your options? And what can you learn from relationship types that are different than your own? Kevin Patterson joins Jess & Brandon to talk about his open marriage of 12 years and counting. He shares some of his mistakes and lessons as well as insightful advice on jealousy for people in monogamous relationships.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Ambiamory, Polyamory, Open Relationships

00:00:05 - 00:05:09

You're listening to the sacs with Dr Jess podcast sex and relationship advice, you can use tonight. Welcome to the sex with Dr jazz podcast. Brought to you my our friends at desire resorts in cruises. I'm Brandon wear your unofficial sexologist. And I'm just so Riley a soon to be retired sexologist. Oh, that sounds amazing. I gotta say love what we do have a lot of fun. But the idea of kicking back and travel in the world for six months sounds pretty amazing right now. So it's a six month retirement to six months sabbatical. I think so I think we'll go on a sabbatical in the next few years, we go pretty hard. We do. Actually, I'm letting out a big X hail this week because I handed in a book transcript on Monday, I filmed an entire video course yesterday. So I'll have a new book coming out next year co authored by the fabulous Marla, Renee Stewart, and our book is called the ultimate guide to Saddam and foreplay. And yes, foreplay counts as sex and. Is really about all things sexual? It's really not just seduction four play and Marla is getting married this weekend in Atlanta's so shout out to Marla and her partner. Esther I'm heading down in the morning for her wedding arm, nor growing, but I want you to tell us a bit more about the fem- of their wedding. 'cause it's pretty unique. Yeah, I'm pretty excited. First of all, I can't wait to see Marla dress. Because I've heard it's going to be read. And because it's Marla it's going to be fun Bula space. Fabulous. And I've been told as a guest that we are to wear bold colors with a military sexy theme. Why didn't we do this for our wedding? I don't know because I didn't wanna see you in like military military boy shorts. I look back at the photos of our wedding. And it was one of the best days of my life. But my attire is very different than what Iraq today. Yeah. You wore a white suit that wasn't skin-tight like the clothes. You wear today. Such tight clothing. Let's see it's form fitted. All right. Okay. Let's talk right now who's t-shirt is tighter. Yours are not a fair comment were at home. We're working out of our office our studio, and I was out I was running around so latex convention. Yeah. That was pretty good. Pretty good. My jeans have stretching the Manley Malone any short too, so Marla and Esther shadow to them big. Congrats coming up for this weekend. I don't know what to wear because we've been told to wear bright red, bold, blue or yellow and make sure it's military sexy. Now as a Canadian, I'm not even sure what military sexy is I how ever have number of neighbors who are quite into the circuit seen, right? These fun late night mostly gay clubs, and I'm thinking that if I just knock on Neil's door. He will have many an outfit for me to choose from. And if Neil isn't available. There's another Neil Neil and Brian. I bet you they have something pretty cool too. I wanna I hope that it extends beyond just the tire. I would love to see photos of someone full deco base paint like cammo face paint. Oh. I never thought of that. I'm going to have to do some googling. I just have come off a very very busy period since the beginning of the year. And we finished wrapping a shoot yesterday on a video course on overcoming premature premature ejaculation and lasting longer in bed. So this is the partner of mine, Dr Reese Malone, and so today's the first avenue able to think about anything I actually just booked my flight to Atlanta, even though I knew I needed to go to this wedding. Right. I want to go to this wedding, obviously. So I'm gonna do some googling. If you have any ideas of what I should wear for military sexy theme. Red blue yellow send them my way. Just shoot him to me on Instagram. If I don't know you the image will be blurred. So send me a note letting me know what it is. And of course, Instagram blurs messages from people we don't follow because there are a whole lot of dick pic harassers out there. So that's my plan for the weekend. Stay tuned for the ultimate guide to seduction for place steak state. Tuned for the last longer in bed overcome P E in six simple steps. Video course, and we will move onto atop. That's really interesting to me. We're going to talk about open relationships consensual, non monogamy Ambi Emory as well as poly-amorous. Joining us on the line is Kevin Patterson of Polly role models and author of loves not colorblind and superhero series for higher.

00:05:09 - 00:10:00

Thanks for being here. Kevin. Thank you so much of me. Now, I was reading on your blog that you've been happily married for ten years. And I think that post was a few years old. So we'd love to get to know you a little and tell us a little bit about your relationship. So that was a couple years ago. So I'm happily married for twelve years. I've been with my wife for seventeen and right now my way my relationships work is a date. How I feel like dating. And that's about as much restriction as I actually give. All right end is your wife have the same restrictions or or different parameters of she has the same parameters, but he doesn't have the same amount of bandwidth as I have. So we're my wife she'll date. However, she feels like dating will be maybe two or three people outside of our marriage for me, I feel like dating and that's roughly everybody. We dating right now. I'm pretty sure we read been dating for at least six months. Well, let's it was a pretty good break-up. Right. It was the best. Breakup. Almost all of my breakup are the best breakup. Well, that's talk about that. What makes for a good break up because I think our culture universally sees breakup as as overwhelmingly negative or traumatic. Yeah. I think what makes for a good break-up is sort of recognizing. What is what isn't? There doesn't always have to be a villain doesn't always have to be somebody who did something wrong. It could just be a matter of incompatibility where had a partner where I realized that our communication was getting a bit stilted. And I knew that she didn't have the sort of bandwidth to be what we had already been with one another and one day. She calls me a one day. She texts me and says, hey, can I call you after work, and I'm like, okay. Well, here's the break-up because we never use our voices on our phones, text each other. And after work she calls me up. And I can hear stumbling over her words, she's talking about logistics and bandwith, and that sort of thing, and I said, well, do you need me to break up with you? And she's like, yes, I'm like all right cool. But I'm having this party next month. You're still going to be there. Right. She's like, yeah. Of course, and that was a little over three years ago. And we. Celebrated the three year anniversary of our break-up when it came because when you see us together, we still a couple we still love each other. But we just couldn't manage day-to-day commitment to each other. Like, we had been just didn't work out. We just stopped doing the thing that didn't work and kept doing the thing that did work. How long were you with that partner? How how long was that relationship less than six months, and you felt eat you said that you still love her and you still care for. I mean, you felt that strongly about the six month relationship that that would that's how you express yourself. She is one of the truest game changers. I've ever had in any relationship. So and as far as as far as she says that I'm the same for her. So we still care about each other a lot we still love each other. We hung out just the other day like last weekend, but we can't really manage a relationship in the way that we had it before. So now, it's we see each other. When we see each other. It's awesome. When we do and we've maintained that. Commitment. And that's it. I'm curious when you talk about love, if that love has even defend post break-up, which I think is something that is unfavorable to so many think it probably has if if for no other reason that love is deepen because we're safe enough knowing that we can be who we can accept each other as we are. And where we're at. And sometimes that's not really the way relationships work, sometimes a situation changes. And it changes the dynamic so much that you've got to be apart from one another with us. We just saw the writing on the wall. And instead of letting it turn into a resentment. We just caught up. You know, we we cut the parts out that didn't work and like that. And you kept what worked now if we go back to poly-amorous because you mentioned a blog Holly role models. If people aren't familiar with the term poly-amorous, how do you define it because you talked about your own relationship, and that's one version of poly-amorous, but more broadly speaking, how would you defy? Fine poly-amorous, I defined pollyanna really simply as the willingness the desire the capacity to be in multiple loving romantic relationships. With the knowledge and consent of everybody involved. And my poly-amorous is widespread is a wild male of moving parts, and it's like really sexual whereas other people there pollyanna is it really sexual at all. And that's that's fine. That's ballot. I've got a capacity to date a lot of people.

00:10:00 - 00:15:02

Some people are like, well, I've got these two partners. And that's it, and that's all it will ever be. And that's fine. And that's valid as well. So I think they're I think they're I don't know if there's any wrong way structure poly-amorous. They're unethical ways are ways that does that don't really work for everybody. But I wouldn't say that they're inherently wrong. Everybody's gotta do it the wrong way in customize it in the way that makes sense to them. And when you when we talk about unethical. Polly Marie what does that look like because I'm you know, we have this assumption that if you poly-amorous you're talking everything's with consent, you're working with these ethical boundaries. But of course, because there are human people. Chris relationships that ideal is not something that every relationship lives up to and you call it like not everything is consensus. Not everything is as above board where. Like, I don't I don't keep. I don't keep a running tally of how many people with. And if I start dating someone else. I don't I don't contact every single person that I'm dating and say, by the way, there is like there's one more person than I'm dating. But everybody knows that about me everyone knows and they've all checked in and agreed to that. Whereas there are people who are doing the same thing I'm doing, but they're dishonest about, you know, there are people who place their partners in hierarchies in ways that. That folks don't always agree to like something say pollyannas representations something that pops up all the time are these triads where it's a an established couple bringing in a third party. And that all sounds really entry level that all sounds really basic kind of Polly Emery, but we, but it ends up being one of the harder structures to maintain the hardest structures to achieve because that third person that you're adding to a relationship. They don't get a say in the rules of that relationship. They don't get a say in the structure of that relationship. And that's that, you know, plays out as in as unethical like is it unethical for a couple to share a partner know, but it is unethical for a couple to make rules that apply to somebody who doesn't have a hand in writing them. You know interesting there must be Howard. I ICs that come into play in a setup like that. Because I think that's that is a common one. That's that's a setup that we. Often see depicted in movies. There's a show you me her on flex. I haven't followed it to see how it's depicted as the seasons unfolded. But there is the challenge of one or two people I suppose having the power because they have a long established relationship. I wonder if age and finance engender also come into play there is that something you've observed. Yes. A lot of those relationships are like these unicorn hunter relationships they call them with they're looking for the stereotypical single by babe. And part of that is if you've got a single unattached person there. You can sort of Lord over there. Singleness Lord over there on attach nece, you know, they're not gonna get pulled away to do other things by other people. So if you are a couple, and you are interested in opening up your relationship on you want to start with one person, which might seem most manageable logical. How do you ensure that you do that in a more ethical way did separately? I'm a point Blake separately. And I know that sounds counter intuitive. But the pressure to the pressure for someone to fall in love with two people to different people equally and simultaneously. That's too much. That's too much to put on somebody. Where there's somebody who, you know. I like, you know, if let's say, let's say, I am the single hot by babe. I might be into the husband a little bit more than I'm into the wife, and then and then it looks like an imbalance. And then all of a sudden. You know instead of being in a loving relationship. I, you know, I'm jilted person on Facebook for him getting really angry at the next couple who looking for the stereotypical vibe. It's interesting when you say stereotypical hot by babe because of our hetero normative notions of sex and because of porn representation of threesomes. I think most people think about a woman and a woman who of course is expected to be compulsory sexual do. An in the swing communities will see the gender imbalance here in the way that power plays out. And I've spoken about that on the podcast in the past in poly-amorous communities do run into similar issues around gender, and and I guess expressions of male sexuality is there an expectation that that it should be the women who are by is there. More openness to people of all genders being by. It's is worth we're working hard against that.

00:15:02 - 00:20:03

I mean, it's still there. And I remember reading reading some like old post and older books about poly-amorous and. The prevailing thought used to be if you are a single by woman, and you wanna be treated properly in a relationship in pollyannaish relationship. You should be part of an established couple and bring in third party. You didn't expect if you were if you were if you were the quote, unquote, third, you shouldn't expect that and as social media ramps up as as as the world gets smaller, by way of like digital connective people are talking about that more. So all of a sudden, we see more we see more by guys we see more couple seeking by guys. We see more people who were challenging the power dynamics involved. Whereas before it was just that was just what poly-amorous was like there are people who won't even call themselves. Poly-amorous for fear of the stigma that they are part of an established couple seeking the by aid. But these are the conversations were having were exposing were exposing these imbalances were exposing these things that. That are sort of like, the dirty underbelly of ethical, non monogamy and the more, you expose it. The more changes. Speaking of stigmas, how do you handle or how did you deal with the social element of poly-amorous? Because I think that it's something that you know, other people may look at in monogamous relationships, and would they do they judge you do you feel like they're judging you how do your friends respond? I mean, do they know about your your approach to relationships? There's so many questions that could evolve from here, but how do you handle the so well, my my my friends where my friends when when I I opened up my my wife, and I we opened up together. So like, our Pali origin stories the same story, and they sort of saw the progression of the tool of us just sort of testing out what nominarion he could be to me being a guy who writes a bunch of books and my wife being someone who like who has. Who's a a star of the king community? So like they've been here for for the whole thing. They're they're fine with it. We end up being sort of the defacto relationship coaches of our friend groups among are monogamous, friends because are monogamous friends. They're already full up on monogamy based advice. There's no shortage of books about there's no shortage of books about monogamy. There's no shortage of modeling, by way of parents, and Disney movies and pop culture in general. So they know what they're going to get when they say like, hey, I'm having a problem with my girlfriend. They know what they're gonna get foam. Everybody else in their lives. They know they're going to get what could be unconventional answer when they speak to me or my wife or like, basically anyone in our poly-amorous circles because a lot of times the conversation is, but did you talk to her about it? Now, I'm talking to you. You know, you know, Brennan asked about stigma, and you face a different challenge in stigma as a black man who's poly-amorous. So do you do you find you get token is you have to deal with fetish is Asian or do people demand that you speak for all black man are all people because I can't imagine that there. There are a ton of black men in many of the Pali rooms you walk into. Yeah. And it's a lot. It's a lot better now than it was before. But that's a lot of work when I entered into our local poly-amorous community. This was maybe twenty fourteen twenty fifteen I was the token black guy for what felt like two years, and it was like me and one other black guy like the first time I went to any poly-amorous of in my local community there were maybe they're like seven people of color there. Three of whom never came back and three of whom never came back to any poly, re community events as far as I know one who left and didn't come back until I started hosting events and to who came in my car. You know, what a poly Emery event is. I mean, it was just a it was a local local happy hour. It was just a happy hour that the the organizers of from our local polyamide community set up and said like, hey, it's a it's a meet-and-greet. It's a mixer night. Yeah. And the point is poly-amorous people are doing what non poly-amorous people are doing mowing their lawns going for drinks. Are. We just wondering what that might be. Because I think when we talk about or when you mention it. I just wonder like is that a party is that you know, I mean. I mean like you said it's like just that. Like, it's it's what everybody does. But poly-amorous so like they'll be they'll be a day where someone references a movie to me.

00:20:03 - 00:25:09

And I'll like, you know, what I wanna watch that movie. In fact, I wanna watch three three movies by the same director, and I'm going to invite my poly-amorous community. And then it's just a hang out. It's just a potluck. But then, you know, maybe a relationship we'll start like almost every time that I've hosted a party at my home. Some relationship has started at that party. Kevin icy a television show here. Matchmaker. They're always pitching me the funniest TV shows, but that would be a good one. The Paul even maker take credit for it. All all I'm doing is trying to watch movies talk shit with my friends, and maybe get laid by the end of the night. Just good good food. Good movies. Now, I wanna talk about identity versus behavior. Do you see being poly-amorous as something you opt into a set of preferences or behaviors or or is it something that defines you something that you are part of your personal and sexual identity like an orientation. I think that's something that every person has to decide on their own. I think I think it would be too limiting to say it has to be one of the other. And I know I struggle with what the answer is even for myself where I spent a long time to say, this is a behavior. This is something I'm doing I could turn it off anytime I want, but the longer I stayed in communities the longer I stayed open the more people that I that I've met the less sense returning to monogamy made for me. And then I'd go back and think about times during my monogamous history. Right had conversations about conversations that lean towards a predilection for a nominee. Gimme that. I that I wouldn't have recognized until well after the fact, so I I don't know whether or not it is a behavior or orientation for me. I just know that one way or the other I can't go back. But there are so many people who were like, well, this is what my life is looked like for so long. But if I wanted to be monogamous I could. Yeah. The reason I ask is often run into couples and one partner will say I am monogamous monogamy is the way for me on another partner will say, well, I think I want to be consensually non monogamous, and you wish you could go back in time and take them to the beginning. So they could actually have that discussion but nine years in fifteen years in maybe a couple of kids in a dog in a cat in a house in and so trying to navigate navigate that space between one person who wants one thing and another who either want something else or feels that. It's a core part of their identity. Often leaves us at an impasse. You see that among your friends among your colleagues your peers. The just. I don't see. I don't see how anyone could just make make the choice. Stay static. Like for me. If you'd asked me about if you'd asked me twenty years ago about nominated me versus monogamy, the answer would have been completed than it is now, and it's it's really difficult to nail it down. Actually had a conversation about this last month with our Dr Lewis Powell, the author of building open relationships and on the podcast. Yeah. Listen tastic. But like we had a conversation. I said like if you could take the best parts of everyone of your partners and put them into a single person. Would you be monogamous with that person? And they said no because I can't imagine like I need variety. And really that's the answer for me as well. Like if I could take the best parts of all of my partners. I'd want to separate them still into like three or four different people. Right. It's like a really good hamburger and a really good pie in a really great pizza. I don't want to squish them all together into a dish. Exactly. I mean, I really wish you hadn't put that thought in my head now, actually. My taste kind of good. Now. I talk a little bit about Ambi Emory's. So I was recently talking with a number of folks who identify as Ambi amorous meaning that they are open to and enjoy being part of both monogamous and poly-amorous relationship. So at different points in their lives. They've had mass relationships they've had poly-amorous relationship. Sometimes it's a matter of living situation. I one of the moved far far away from all of partners. And where she was it wasn't easy to connect with new people other times, it's situational. They have you know, maybe one partner and they broken up with the others. And they don't have the time or the bandwith to start new relationships is amby Emory something that comes up with within the poly-amorous community. And how how is it viewed though, I've heard of heard people describe it before like over the course of left years of her people describe that before and my thought is always okay well list, you know, what's good for you? And only recently have heard this term NBA NBA Emory. And I'm glad there's a term like my first thought was like do we really need another word for this? But, but then I realized there are people who want to be able to talk about their experiences with shorthand that that people can just understand.

00:25:09 - 00:30:04

And I, and I know I was the same way with the term mega sexual. So like, I'm glad they have a term where they can like to have shorthand to have a term. They have they can create a culture and language around that so that they can easily identify one another and be able to seek fellowship resources in that regard. So yeah, I'm I'm glad it's a thing. I'm glad it's a thing that actually has a term now. But it's something that I've heard people describe a lot over the course of several years just now with an actual term. Can you can you tell me about mega sexual please the way it this? This is a turn that with a defined by Dr Lewis Powell and Rebecca Heil. Who wrote the book it's called poly-amorous coming out about your nominates relationships, and the way they describe it in the way that I've I've taken it to me is I can't form or I don't form like strong romantic connections, unless there was a sexual component listed sexual chemistry already already there. Beck's Beck's compute. Oh from the doors podcasts said it best on of the of the dildo works. We're Beck's was describing going out on a date and the person they went out on the date with was like, well, we don't have the hookup right now. We can hook up some other time to which Beck said like no sex. But how am I gonna know if I like them, and I yeah. And I kind of feel I kind of feel the same way. Like, that's how that's how I relate in my relationships Negga sexual very interesting. So I'm sure there are many people who are mega sexual listening who have never been able to put a word we're gonna fi right to the way, they feel are you willing to share the moment in two thousand two that that brief awkward moment of non monogamy that strengthened your current relationship with your partner you made reference to on your blog. And I was like are you willing to share what that was both there? So many awkward moments. Give me a hit. And I'll and I'll run with it. You wrote in two thousand two few months after meeting the women, I would marry we stumbled into a brief moment of non monogamy ignorance, I expect everything to turn awkward and unstable. Instead, it's strengthened the bond soon after we started having lengthy and repeated discussions about how important exclusivity was twat relationship, and as it turned out. It's not very important. So you're in Toronto. So you know, caribena Ben there. There was it was a yearly trip that me and the homes would take you know, we pile a bunch of dudes into into a mini Van Gogh up to caravan and party for the weekend one year, they're just like most of my friends who I go with they weren't available. So it's me, and my one homeboy he invites his girlfriend, I invite my girlfriend, my girlfriend invites her girlfriend her friend that is a girl that as a woman. And so the file was go up there and about a week before the trip. I just sort of joked around about it, and I'm like, well, it's a lot of sexually active young people on his trip. Lots drink in his smoking. And and you know, something crazy might pop off, and my my then girlfriend now wife took it more seriously than I did like a lot of my best ideas are may joking around and someone else to say, but maybe though, right? So next thing, you know, where in Toronto were enjoying caribena and the and my wife and her friend are rolling around. And I told myself I don't care what happens here. This is a thing that never happens to regular, folks. Like me, the idea of threesome, I don't care it breaks us relationship. I don't care if they both hate me afterwards. I've got to shoot shot. You know, stereotypical male fantasy even though I don't currently identify as head head was where I was at the in the day. But I thought it would get weird. I thought would break the relationship in ended up not doing either villes things. Instead, we like I like, I like you like you said that I said we ended up having conversations about exclusively. And what we needed out of our relationship after the fact, and I had a sort of on and off dating relationship with that friend for for a number of years. And then eventually my wife started dating other guys as well. And that ended up being sort of a a teachable moment. Because as a guy socialized socialized, American male. I thought I was supposed to fight somebody. You know, my my wife started dating another guy. I thought like I gotta kill this guy. I've got hate this guy. I don't know how I'm gonna react to this. There's got to be a jealousy involved. There's got to be the throwing of chairs, and like the punching of walls, but way, she went out with her first non Kevin guy.

00:30:05 - 00:35:00

I asked her for everyone of the details. I was like it's always gonna be the wildest porno ever in my head if I don't ask her. So she gave me all the details. He told me about the guy she told me about the day. She told me about the sex. And the only thought the only natural thought I could come up with was I'm glad she's home. I'm glad she had fun. And that was it. So now, I had the question everything I've ever been socialized to believe about about my about maleness and manhood and the possessiveness over over the women in my lot the women in my life. You know, I had to throw a lot at unlearn. A lot of toxic bullshit. And if you look at some folks in the poly-amorous community, especially if you kind of look more old school some of that toxic masculinity. Still exists. And so now, you're you're tasked with breaking down. And I wanna go back to you know, elitism in any community. And I know that there, of course, is some elitism that exists in in monogamy. Of course, monogamous people believe they're they're they're the elite, but I think in the Polly communities sometimes there isn't elitism in the belief that certain types of relationships are more of all certain types of relationships are more desirable. Is that something you run into in? How how are you breaking that down? And I definitely run into that a lot. I do it. Ironically, I do it jokingly. Like I joke around about some of the things that people pass off as monogamous like a lot of the possessiveness a lot of toxic behavior that people pass off as just being standard monogamy. I I laugh in choke at. But the fact that the matter is we all have things that we can learn from one another like there's things that make monogamy work that poly-amorous people can learn and learning a lot out of and vice versa. So when I run into when I run into people who are not doing that. Ironically, people who are just like, well, I'm poly-amorous, and you know, you know, flip their hair and. Their hair in and believe himself to be like the superior beings. I call it out a call it out. I question it like I point to I point to our flaws as easily as I point to to our high points. You know, I mean part of part of Polly role models is spotlighting. Some of our mistake. Spotlighting are flaws spotlighting the things we do wrong. So that people know that we do things wrong. So that we don't have to deal with the whole respectability politics of pretending that our relationship are always happy and healthy. Sometimes they're toxic. Sometimes they're effed up, and that's okay to not like, okay and the individual sense. But it's okay that it's okay that poly-amorous can also produce flawed behavior. And you know, it's humans are involved because never going to be perfect. And I think that's important to talk about the flies. Otherwise, you'll find monogamous people will look for those toxic relationships and say, oh, look, no poly-amorous can't work because of this specific incident. And of course, you know, we point back to monogamy and say he ever seen unhealthy monogamous relationship you ever seen a monogamous relationship breakdown. So going back to the high points just to close it out. If there's something that monogamous folks or people who are somewhere in the monogam- mich- territory where which is where I think a lot of our listeners are if there's something we can take from poly-amorous something that we might be missing. What would you want us to to leave with in? Maybe put in our toolbox emotional literacy is so aboard emotional literacy zone for like. It's not important to pollyanna. We're supporting to life. But it's it's something you have to focus on poly-amorous. And it's so easy to get jealous. And appoint point and say, well this thing that you do makes me jealous. Don't do this thing. Whereas Impala Marie the focus supposed to be more. Like this thing that you do makes me jealous. Let me learn why that is let me figure out why I feel this way based on this thing that you're doing and how much how much of my fear how much my insecurity around that Israel. How much of it is just in my head. And what can we do to mitigate that without me controlling your behavior? And the way you put that this turning back to yourself when you experience an emotion as opposed to only looking for external sources, and regardless of your relationship arrangement that's important for every single emotion. I would love to have you back again because you. Talked about how you responded to your wife's first date, and how you asked about the info, and I think people could really benefit from how to navigate those early days of dating if you are opening up your relationship. So would would love to have you back to talk about that with this has been really great.

00:35:00 - 00:36:35

Thank you being with us. It was excellent. You so much having where can people find you? And you've written several books. Tell us where to look for you a been a unpolished role models on everything the blog itself the interview series. I'm actually repping it way way down right now. But what I have been working on is been writing a lot of books right now out of elible is less. Not colorblind reysen representation of poly-amorous, another alternate of communities. That's may discussing the way rice intersects with Paul EM. And also for hire operator, which is the first book in the for higher series. And that's a queer poly-amorous POC centered a superhero book where? Those identities are represented, but like it's a superhero book, and it's about superhero things a superhero universe. But we want to make sure that we focused that we represented the identities even though the stories aren't necessarily based on those love at end is that have pictures. No. It's a it's not a graphic novel. If it's an all the all the words novel. Okay. Cool. Thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you to you for tuning in check out Polly role models follow desire resorts. And we wish you a great one wherever you're at an incredible weekend. You're listening to the sex with Dr jazz podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.